Brooks and Capehart talk about what’s next as ICE leaves Minnesota

William Brangham:

The Trump administration is pulling ICE from Minnesota, European leaders are contemplating a new world order, and parts of the US government are on the verge of shutting down again.

It’s time to analyze Brooks and Capehart. These are The Atlantic’s David Brooks and MS Now’s Jonathan Capehart.

Good evening, gentlemen. Nice to see you on Valentine’s Eve.

Jonathan Capehart:

William, good to see you.

David Brooks:

I can feel the romance.

(He laughed)

William Brangham:

Well, this is going to turn out completely differently.

(He laughed)

William Brangham:

President Trump put – I’m talking about Minnesota – he put the border czar in charge of what happens there. And Tom Homan said, okay, now we’re going to start pulling this back.

David, what do you think of this development?

David Brooks:

Well, when Tom Homan is the believable and likeable one, you know we’ve come a long way.

(He laughed)

David Brooks:

And I think that’s partly because of the horror of those videos and the killings. But this is partly due to citizen power.

We’ve talked a lot over the months about the civic movement. In the bitterly cold weather, Minneapolis residents behaved in a humane, self-disciplined manner that attracted people from across the political spectrum in a disciplined manner. They raised the temperature and put the system in an impossible situation.

Either act brutally and generate more hostility or lose control of the streets. This is what the civil movement needs to do, which is to put pressure on the government and expose the moral distance between one side and the other.

I was with a historian yesterday. “Learn from the civil rights movement,” she said. Everyone should study the civil rights movement. This is what they did. In this case, it worked in Minneapolis, and even the Trump administration had to back down.

William Brangham:

Do you see it that way too, that this is people power?

Jonathan Capehart:

definitely. And I saw that from the beginning.

Remember I went to college in Minnesota. And so Minnesota has a special place in my heart. And I was just there. I wasn’t at the show last weekend because I was at a Carleton Board of Trustees meeting.

And what you were talking about in Minneapolis wasn’t just in Minneapolis. It was all the time. In Northfield, Minnesota, they were dealing with ICE. And they were dealing with ICE in a very calm way, not through sirens and horns, but through text message chains, people who were watching, taking license plates, telling people.

I went to do something on Friday and the guy who picked me up said — excused himself for the car and then said to me, I was — quote — “eating railroad food all night.”

William Brangham:

amazing.

Jonathan Capehart:

And so to David’s point…

William Brangham:

These are for people who feel like they can’t go to the grocery store because they’re afraid of what…

Jonathan Capehart:

i couldn’t…

(crosstalk)

Jonathan Capehart:

They did not leave the house. We’re talking about people who haven’t left the house in over a month.

And so what we had in Minneapolis, what we had in Northfield, Minnesota, and what we have across Minnesota is people coming to the aid of their neighbors and their loved ones, standing up for their communities in the face of incredible, I don’t know any other word to use, but oppression from the federal government, targeting, targeting their communities.

William Brangham:

And yet, we still see that this is the third time that ICE agents have shot people, one of them, this Venezuelan immigrant, in addition to the killings of Renee Judd and Alex Peretti, where the federal government says one thing happened, and the video or testimonial evidence completely contradicts their story. And yet they cling to this story over and over again.

And there’s just an Orwellian quality to what’s going on here. They won’t budge.

David Brooks:

This has been a revelation since Trump’s first term, that a lot of governments are governed by standards. There is no rule.

But you assume, when you see a video like this, that there will be an investigation and heads will roll. If you have a completely rude administration, there will be no real investigation and heads will not roll.

And even Kristi Noem, the head of the Department of Homeland Security, I mean she – you would think she would be in trouble.

William Brangham:

right.

David Brooks:

She is in desperate trouble in her agency.

William Brangham:

For calling Alex Peretti a domestic terrorist.

David Brooks:

There was a great article in the Wall Street Journal this week. She fires a pilot because he forgot to bring her blanket off the plane

But the main thing about that story is that people were leaking information from all over the agency. They were insulted by the way she did her job. However, Trump endorsed it again.

William Brangham:

And as I mentioned, tonight at midnight, we’re going to start to see a shutdown of part of the government because Democrats are stepping back and saying, we need reforms to these agencies, and some Republicans are saying, you’re asking too much.

Do you think this is a fight worth fighting, and that Democrats are doing the right thing?

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes, and I’ll just give you two reasons, Renee Goode and Alex Peretti, two American citizens who were murdered by federal officers associated with that agency.

And let’s also keep in mind that the government will most likely go into a partial lockdown at 12:01 because everyone is out of the city anyway. But keep in mind that ICE is fully funded for at least the next five to six years. So we’re talking about other agencies, TSA and others that will be affected by this closure.

Democrats are right to demand not just reform, but some accountability for what happened on the streets of Minneapolis and what could happen on the streets of other cities. Let’s not breathe too much of a sigh of relief over what’s happening in Minnesota. Great for the people of Minnesota and Minneapolis.

But as they talked to people there, they also expressed concern about where will this product be exported next? And I think that’s what Democrats are thinking too. This is — people should not look at this as a partisan issue. People should look at this as holding the government accountable for what it does to the American people in the name of the American people.

David Brooks:

Can I disagree?

William Brangham:

please.

Jonathan Capehart:

Oh.

(He laughed)

William Brangham:

Just because it’s Valentine’s Day.

David Brooks:

Thank you.

Jonathan Capehart:

right.

David Brooks:

I would disagree emotionally.

We have democracy. And when there’s disagreement, when something terrible happens, you go to the voters. And I think that’s what Democrats should do. Look what Republicans are doing. Go to the voters.

When there is a political dispute between elections, you don’t shut down the government. We didn’t do that in the past – until Newt Gingrich came into town, set a precedent, and now we’re on the rise. So when the government shuts down, it hurts the government. B, it harms public confidence in government. It makes us look ineffective.

And as Jonathan said, we’re not going to bring this up to ICE. It’s the people at TSA who won’t get a check. So I think that if you weaken democratic institutions by shutting down the government every time there’s a policy disagreement — and, by the way, Republicans will do that more often in the future — it’s terrible for our democracy.

William Brangham:

I want to quickly focus on what’s happening outside. We’ve seen some of Nick’s tremendous reporting from the Munich Security Conference, where European leaders are grappling with the idea that America is no longer what it used to be.

And Jonathan, when you look at this matter, and how they are dealing with it and how Trump and his administration are pressuring the Europeans, how do you think this will develop?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, I think the Europeans are right to look at the United States and think that maybe we shouldn’t depend on it so much. We must come up with contingency plans, because the United States is no longer a trusted friend or ally.

In many cases – take Greenland – it has become an adversary. Their caution is not new. Four years ago, Vice President Harris went to the Munich Security Conference, gave a speech, and her first question from the chair of the Munich Security Conference was, President Biden said America is back, but, Madam Vice President, the question is, for how long?

Now the Europeans have seen the answer to this question. So they’re quite right to be stressed, stressed out, whatever synonym Mr. Synonym throws out there.

William Brangham:

But, David, we’ve seen some cases where European leaders have acknowledged that some of the things that Trump has pressured them to do, like not rely on the United States so much, and they say, some of them outright, that Trump is right. We need to strengthen our own defenses.

David Brooks:

There is always a kernel of truth in every attack Trump makes until he overreacts and destroys.

And I said, you go to Trump — Trump like — he rules, for example, you go to the doctor and you say, I have acne, and he says, well, we’ll cut your head off. This will solve your acne.

(He laughed)

David Brooks:

And that’s what he does. He overreacts and destroys him.

The difference is that someone said — I think the German leader said this week, we still have common interests, but we don’t have common values.

And I think that’s the right distinction, because Trump basically sees the world, not as the Western alliance, which has been built since 1945. He sees the world as a regional hegemon. This is not the way Europe sees the world. Thus, Trump sees Russia here, and its hegemony, and China there, and its hegemony, and we are the dominant power here in the Americas, and we must govern our neighborhood.

The problem with that is that you are asking for bloodshed over and over again. I mentioned this in News Hour about a month ago. If you go back to 2,000 people, there were about 15,000 people dying in war around the world. Since 2013, it has exceeded 100,000 annually.

This is death. This is the death and violence resulting from the destabilization of the US-led international order. For people who don’t like this international system, wait until it goes away.

William Brangham:

I mean I hear you. No one here celebrates the idea of ​​additional death.

However, do you think, Jonathan, that there’s any benefit in Trump driving a wedge here by helping to shore up the alliance, perhaps in the long term, that when Trump’s not around, that will – that might clarify our alliance with our allies?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don’t — no, I don’t see it that way, the way you put it, because the way the Europeans look at the United States, it’s this international system that has lasted for eight decades with the Western alliance, but the United States is the foundation of it.

So, without the United States there as a reliable ally, what does that mean then? What does it represent? And the great thing is that they’ll spend more money on defending themselves, and they’ll do all sorts of other things. But, from David’s point of view, if we don’t share the same values, if Europe and the United States look at us and say they’re not like us, then we should leave them aside.

Indeed, China, let’s talk to you about more deals, more cooperation.

William Brangham:

We’re already seeing some of that happening.

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

William Brangham:

Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, good to see you both. Thank you.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks William.

David Brooks:

It’s good to see you.