Capehart and Gorman talk about Democrats’ election win and Trump’s push to end the filibuster

Amna Nawaz:

Negotiations to reopen the federal government faltered this week as the shutdown became the longest in U.S. history. Meanwhile, Tuesday’s elections achieved resounding victories for Democrats in several states.

To analyze all this and more, we now turn to Capehart and Gorman. This is MSNBC’s Jonathan Capehart and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. David Brooks is away.

Good to see you both. Thank you for joining us.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Amna.

Matt Gorman, Republican strategist:

It’s good to see you.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, let’s start with some of the lessons we learned from that election.

We heard President Trump earlier this week express concern, Jonathan, that this party lost some of those key elections because it was blamed for the shutdown. Meanwhile, Democrats are riding the wave of victories. Do you feel like both sides are getting the right message? Should Democrats step in now?

Jonathan Capehart:

I don’t know if they need to go deeper. I understand the motivation to do this. Maybe we’re digging because the president is saying out loud, to the consternation of Republicans, the shutdown is hurting us, affordability, and a lot of things that Republicans haven’t talked about in this election and the ones before that.

I think Republicans – I don’t understand why Republicans – and I think about Senator – Senate Majority Leader John Thune – why don’t they work hard, sit down with Chuck Schumer, the minority leader, call Jeffries, call the president and say, let’s get this done, because it hurts us on Tuesday.

But more importantly, it is hurting the American people now, in real time.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, should Republicans do this, especially after what we saw in the election?

Matt Gorman:

Yes, when I first saw him, President Trump, talking about the shutdown as the reason for this, I immediately registered it for what it was — there were bread crumbs, so to speak, even before the results showed that he was preparing to really pressure Republicans on the filibuster.

There was an Axios story published around 6:00 on election night saying he would hold Republicans accountable to pressure them to back off the filibuster.

Amna Nawaz:

right.

Matt Gorman:

I saw this as an extension of the strategy.

I don’t think so – from the polls, it doesn’t look like it’s shutting down, per se, unlike the economy, for example.

Jonathan Capehart:

right.

Matt Gorman:

… That was really the reason Tuesday night.

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

But it was a way for him to enhance that.

Now, of course, as we’re seeing now with airlines, it’s about to become a reality for a broader segment of the American public than before…

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

… Not just people on SNAP and not just people with insurance on the exchanges.

Amna Nawaz:

So, Jonathan, up to that point, we reported earlier about 1,000 flight cancellations so far, right? The last longest lockdown we’ve seen, air traffic and these disruptions were the pressure point that brought it to an end.

Do you feel the same could happen this time?

Jonathan Capehart:

I mean, maybe, but I think there are several pressure points. I am one of those people who was affected by a canceled flight.

(He laughed)

Jonathan Capehart:

I may have another canceled flight. You may have to hop on the train. There is nothing wrong with the train.

But it could be a pressure point, but I think Republicans have multiple pressure points here that precede the air traffic controllers. Exchanges have been opened, health care exchanges. People are now finding out how much their health premiums will skyrocket at the beginning of the year.

There’s the issue of SNAP benefits, which the administration said – and fortunately, before we went live, a federal judge said, no, you – Mr. President, we’re not going to hear your case.

Amna Nawaz:

right.

Jonathan Capehart:

The lower court ruling still stands.

And that’s just – to me, there seems to be – there’s meanness and callousness here when you put all of these things together, using the shutdown, and using these things to pressure Democrats to come to the table and make a deal.

But, again, I would say that the president should call up all the leaders, lock them in a room and say, what are we going to do? And I think Thune – correct me if I’m wrong, Matt – maybe this is something that Thune and Speaker Johnson don’t want to see happen, because the president might make a deal with Schumer and Jeffries, especially on health care.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, how do you look at that?

Matt Gorman:

I think both leaders on the Republican side are very concerned about any preconditions for opening up the government beforehand.

I think we saw this back when I was at the NRCC in 2013 when Ted Cruz shut down the government over Obamacare. Obama had this thing, we’re not going to hold reopening the government hostage. And I think Republicans now on the other side of this have held themselves to the same standard, because there will inevitably be another CR, whether it’s in January, whether it’s in December, or next year.

Setting that path now, where we can negotiate what we need to do just to keep the government open, is a very difficult path.

Amna Nawaz:

So, if Democrats are now offering a one-year extension on the health care benefits they’ve been demanding, would you advise Republican leaders to accept that deal? Is that what you’re saying?

Matt Gorman:

It’s completely unacceptable that we’re back to this before next year’s midterm elections. And I think many Republicans see a great danger in this kind of thing happening. Even Chief Jeffries on the other end said that wasn’t working either.

Amna Nawaz:

So, in this case, I have to ask, where is the ramp?

(He laughed)

Matt Gorman:

That’s where this comes in. There’s got to be a magic path, I don’t know what it is yet, where Schumer and the Democrats can go to their base and say, hey, look, we got a pound of flesh, but the White House, as the Republicans say, we didn’t give up either.

This is a mysterious tightrope to walk.

Jonathan Capehart:

actually.

(He laughed)

Amna Nawaz:

Mystical and magical.

Jonathan Capehart:

I see you want to move to another topic.

Amna Nawaz:

If we’re waiting for magic, I’m not sure how long we’ll have to wait.

I want to ask you about something else this week, which is big news in Congress.

Jonathan Capehart:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

That was Nancy Pelosi’s announcement that she would not run for re-election. This is talking about an 85-year-old woman who has been a force for four decades on Capitol Hill.

However, I have to say that among the reactions to her announcement came from New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, who wrote – I quote – “She is right to retire now, setting an example of a party with a serious aging problem.”

Jonathan, what do you think about that? Should more Democrats follow suit?

Jonathan Capehart:

I’ll leave it to them. There are certainly a lot of old people in Congress. There are a lot of seniors in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

When people talk about the problem of gerontocracy, I wonder, are they talking about the fact that they’re old or is that just a cover because they’re not – they’re old and they’re not pushing – the ideas needed to move the party forward?

I don’t hear anyone calling for Senator Bernie Sanders to resign from the Senate. No one is talking about his resignation from the Senate. But he and Nancy Pelosi are on opposite sides on many issues. So, whether Senator Schumer has to retire or other people have to retire, I leave it up to them. But we’re talking about the retirement of House Speaker Emeritus Nancy Pelosi.

I’ve interviewed her several times. We’ve probably all interviewed her many times. She is tireless. She’s constantly working, constantly raising money for Democrats, constantly trying to hold the line, whether it’s for President Trump or trying to implement the president’s agenda when it was President Obama, where Obamacare passed without a single Republican vote. And she was very proud of that.

And whenever I asked her any question about vote counting, she always went, “You passed the Affordable Care Act without a single Republican vote.”

It’s a dependency. So, whether the other seniors in the Senate should retire or in Congress, whatever. Nancy Pelosi deserves her due.

Matt Gorman:

She was also very prominent in pushing out another longtime Democrat, Joe Biden, last summer. It was – when that started to subside a little bit, you think maybe Joe Biden can get through this terrible debate and the weeks that followed, I went on “Morning Joe” almost out of nowhere and stuck the proverbial knife into his political career.

And – but it’s been effective for both parties, look, certainly, with Jonathan, for Democrats, a lot of accomplishments over 25 years of legislative accomplishments for them, but frankly, for us as well, we’ve put it many times in political ads when we wanted to take back the House. She has been a very effective bogeyman for our party as well.

But let’s be honest. With her and Mitch McConnell exiting the scene in 2026-2027…

Amna Nawaz:

Yes.

Matt Gorman:

…Those kind of dealmakers, especially, for example, when we had the fiscal cliff in 2010 or this whole thing, those were the dealmakers. These are the people who can get into a room with Joe Biden and reach an agreement.

Jonathan Capehart:

right.

Matt Gorman:

There’s no one there this time.

Amna Nawaz:

Matt, I feel compelled…

Jonathan Capehart:

Serious lawmakers.

Matt Gorman:

Yes.

Amna Nawaz:

I feel compelled to point out that President Trump was also the oldest president ever inaugurated. Is there an age problem on the Republican side as well?

Matt Gorman:

Again, but who is affected? When you look at the CNN debate stage, there’s a big difference between Trump and Biden.

Jonathan Capehart:

I worry about the current president’s mental capacity on a whole host of issues.

Amna Nawaz:

We’ll save this for another conversation as well when we have more time.

I want to make you think, if possible, about the death of Dick Cheney, arguably the most important vice president in American history. How do you view his legacy, Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart:

It certainly had an impact on some of the bad stuff, the bad intelligence that led the United States into the war in Iraq.

But I think part of his obituary should be what he did in his final years. And it was to do something that too many Republicans in this city still refuse to do. This was to stand up to Donald Trump when he was abusing the Constitution and the rights of the American people. For that reason, I applaud him.

Amna Nawaz:

He died.

Matt Gorman:

I remember an old story.

He and Dan Quayle, the former vice president, were talking, and Quayle was telling him about the vice presidency. This was before Cheney took office.

“It’s really festive,” Cowell said.

And Cheney, in his trademark toughness, says: “The president and I have a different understanding.”

Isn’t this reducing the possibility of the contract? He changed that role, whether you were Joe Biden or J.D. Vance, he certainly gave a path for them to follow, and he was able to really – be able to pull the levers in the administrative state that I think no one else since him has been able to do.

Amna Nawaz:

A complex legacy, like that of many leaders, certainly follows. And of course our thoughts are with his family.

Matt Gorman, Jonathan Capehart, great to see you two together. Thank you very much.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thanks, Amna.

Matt Gorman:

Thank you.