Chris Whipple talks about the White House’s reaction to his Susie Wells profile

Jeff Bennett:

That was the story that captured Washington’s attention this week, Vanity Fair journalist Chris Whipple’s story, which, based on 11 taped interviews with Susie Wiles, President Trump’s chief of staff, provided a rare and revealing look at Trump’s second term.

Through Whipple’s reporting, Wiles offers unusually frank assessments of Trump’s top officials, criticizing Attorney General Pam Bondi’s handling of the Epstein files, calling Vice President J.D. Vance a conspiracy theorist, and offering a stunning description of her boss, Pres.

Chris Whipple joins us now.

Thank you for being here.

CHRIS Whipple, Vanity Fair: Great to be with you.

Jeff Bennett:

So, as you said, your reporting is based on 11 recorded interviews with Susie Wales over the course of a year. How did you build this level of trust and access?

Chris Whipple:

Yeah, it’s really amazing because, you know, the top people in the White House rarely talk to you on the record. I wrote a book about Joe Biden, so I know something about that.

But from the beginning, in January, almost a year ago, she was remarkably unguarded, open, and registered, except when we mutually agreed otherwise, and that was very few and far between. And again, I was just – I found it amazing that I was able to talk to her for almost the entire year.

We spoke through every crisis, from the blanket amnesty for rebels on January 6 to the bombings of boats in the Caribbean in recent days. So, it’s not just a profile of Susie Wales, but a fascinating inside look at Trump 2.0.

Jeff Bennett:

As many people know by now, she has been quoted as saying that Trump has an alcoholic personality, called the vice president, we said, a conspiracy theorist, referred to the director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought, as an absolute right-wing bigot, and said that Attorney General Pam Bondi’s initial handling of the Epstein files, which, in her words, was completely rubbished by Bondi.

She was, she says, incautious and blunt in her assessments. She describes Trump’s top officials the way many Trump critics describe them. The question is why?

Chris Whipple:

Yes, which is a great question.

I think there are two points I would like to make here. First, I take seriously her words that she felt Trump was insulted and unfairly treated, as he was during his first term. She was bound and determined to see this changed in any way possible if she could find a fair hearing. And I think she thought she was going to get it from me.

Number two, I think there’s something else going on here. I think when you work in a bubble like the Trump White House and you’re surrounded all day by like-minded aides who are more or less reading from the same playbook, I think that at a certain point, in this isolated world, you forget that some of the things you say might sound crazy outside of this milieu, I mean, in – on a normal planet.

And I think that’s how they talk to each other a lot. J.D. Vance has confirmed that he is a conspiracy theorist. Donald Trump has confirmed that he has an alcoholic personality, so there it is.

Jeff Bennett:

I also asked her about the president’s health, his erratic behavior, his falling asleep in meetings, and his verbal abuse of correspondence. What did she say about that?

Chris Whipple:

Well, again, absolutely exceptional.

Regarding the issue of the president’s health, she insists that he is fine. She said: My health is good, and his health is great.

I said what about sleeping in these cabinet meetings? “No,” she said, “he just closes his eyes.”

Then I pressed her about the boss’s raise – all these episodes of verbal abuse of women. And she said – and I asked her specifically what he said to the Bloomberg reporter when he said, “Shut up, you pig.”

Her response: “He’s a counter player. Increasingly these days, women are punching.”

Jeff Bennett:

After the peace ended, Wells referred to it as a successful piece. What do you make of it? Was she talking to you thinking she wasn’t recording when in fact she was?

Chris Whipple:

never. never. I understood very well from the beginning that we were registered. In fact, she commented that we were on the record several times and confirmed it.

So, what this means is that they realize that she was speaking outside of school and that she was in trouble for what she said. They had to clean it. What is striking is that they failed. The White House failed to challenge a single assertion in the article or quote. And what this tells you is that the story is pretty solid.

Jeff Bennett:

She also said, according to your report, that she did not always agree with the president’s policy decisions, and that she was initially horrified by the closure of USAID. She questioned the blanket pardon for all defendants on January 6, and as I mentioned previously, they disagreed on the administration’s deportation process.

So by what measure do you judge its effectiveness if it is on the losing side in all these major debates?

Chris Whipple:

Yes, it’s a great question.

The answer is complicated. The answer is that she seems to want to have it both ways. I think she wants to be viewed in the same way that some of the great White House presidents in history were viewed, like Leon Panetta, James Baker III, Baker under Reagan, Panetta under Clinton.

These people were able to tell the president hard truths. Yet, at the same time, she frankly admits that the fights she has with Donald Trump are about small things, not about the big constitutional issues that the head of the White House sometimes has to call out the president on.

So there – I found – and I also found that there is a wonderful kind of journey that you take. At first, it appears to be trying to curb some of Donald Trump’s successes. And now it seems to me that she was involved in almost everything.

Jeff Bennett:

What do your reporting and conversations with her reveal about the current dynamics within the Trump White House?

Chris Whipple:

Well, I think the current dynamics are really interesting, obviously the reaction to my Vanity Fair article. It’s 9,500 words. It’s – there’s a lot of context. It’s accurate. I think that’s totally fair. I commend Susie Wells for many of her abilities.

But what is clear is that as much as they were dissatisfied with this piece and the things she said, she was not going to the kennel or the woodshed. Her – her relationship with Donald Trump is strong. That’s one of the great things about this piece. It goes back to 2015, when they met for the first time, and Trump was very impressed that she was the daughter of Pat Summerall, the famous sportscaster.

They – she has a real charm with Donald Trump.

Jeff Bennett:

Chris Whipple, thanks again for joining us.

Chris Whipple:

Thanks for having me.