Jonathan Karl explores Trump’s focus on revenge in his new book

Jeff Bennett:

In his new book, ABC News Washington correspondent Jonathan Karl offers a behind-the-scenes look at key moments in the White House and in the 2024 campaign trail that ended one party’s control of the White House and returned another to power.

The book is titled “Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America.”

And John Carl joins us now.

It’s great to have you here.

Jonathan Karl, author of Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America: Great. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Bennett:

So, you open this book by recounting a phone call with President Trump right after the election.

Jonathan Carl:

Yes.

Jeff Bennett:

She says the president wanted to hear you acknowledge his election victory, and compares this interaction to a scene from Breaking Bad.

Tell us about that and what inspired you about how he approached a second term.

Jonathan Carl:

Look, this has been an amazing election, with a lot of twists and turns. And you know what it’s like on election night. You’re up all night, and then you have to be on the morning shows and you’re on TV doing this. I’ve been up all night, and I thought I’d call Trump to congratulate him, which is weird, by the way. Why would you call Trump?

I’ve been talking to him throughout the campaign, like every and – a few weeks, every couple of days.

Jeff Bennett:

I had known him for more than 30 years.

Jonathan Carl:

I’ve known him for a long time, so I didn’t think he would answer by the way. I mean, he’s the president-elect now.

Jeff Bennett:

right.

Jonathan Carl:

But he answered, and I said, “President-elect Trump, I’m just calling to congratulate him.”

He stopped and said, “On what? On what, Jonathan? You tell me. Congratulations on what?”

And I said, “In the greatest victory in the history of American politics,” and that’s what it was. But he reminded me of the Breaking Bad character, Bryan Cranston’s Walter White, who at one point was around with some other drug dealers and clearly outdone them. He says: “Say my name, say my name.”

Trump wanted to hear me say what happened, he wanted to hear me say, after everything I wrote about him, to hear me say he had this great victory.

Jeff Bennett:

Another revelation in this book, you cite Mike Pence’s handwritten notes from the morning of January 6 documenting this call he had with President Trump, where Trump called him weak if he confirmed Biden’s victory.

What new insights do those observations provide about the pressure on Pence or the way President Trump viewed that moment?

Jonathan Carl:

First of all, it is a fascinating historical document. Think about all we studied on January 6th, the hours and hours of prime time hearings, the criminal investigations. I wrote a book about January 6th, and another great book of journalism about January 6th.

These observations have never been seen before. Pence referred to them in his memoirs, but even in 2018, Pence did not reveal the actual content of these remarks. He scribbles on his daily schedule. So, you feel like Pence – It’s 10:00 a.m. on January 6th. He is about to ascend to the presidency.

Trump wants him to use that power that he has, which is nothing in reality, to overturn the presidential election. He has refused so far. Due to the intensity of his observations, he is trying to document that conversation for history. There’s one little piece in those notes that struck me when I finally got to see them, which is what looks like an emoji that he’s writing, which is kind of a scribble on an angry face.

“You’re listening to the wrong people,” she says – she quotes Trump.

Pence’s answer is: “I listen to my heart and my mind.” He’s clearly upset about that. Is he angry? Is it Trump’s anger or his anger? Unclear, but this is the document.

Jeff Bennett:

There are people who will wonder, why keep such details in this book? If this exists, if this reporting exists, in the public interest, why isn’t it reported in real time?

Jonathan Carl:

Yes. No, that’s a great question. And I get it – I hear this a lot. Other reporters who write books hear this a lot: Why do you save things? Isn’t it your responsibility to take it out?

Well, this is the reality – the reality here, and I really hope people listen to this. I’m breaking the news in this book because I’m writing a book. It’s a different kind of journalism. I’m digging much deeper than I would be able to in daily reporting. And I talk to people who don’t want to talk to me about a story that’s going to air that night or the next morning and get in-depth stuff.

This took a lot of work to discover. I didn’t sit down and put it in a book. I got it because I was writing a book.

Jeff Bennett:

The other detail that I got across in your conversations was the sense that Kristi Noem, when she was nominated to be Secretary of Homeland Security, was a personal favor that the president did to Corey Lewandowski.

This is despite concerns about her qualifications. There have been similar doubts raised about Sean Duffy, and his lack of relevant experience, who is now Transport Secretary. What does this tell you about how power, loyalty, and competence will be redefined in Trump’s second term?

Jonathan Carl:

This really indicates a contradiction with the first, because Trump, in part, in his first term was looking for credentials. He wanted to be confirmed. So you have people like four-star General John Kelly as Secretary of Homeland Security, and four-star General Mattis as Secretary of Defense.

You had Senator Sessions as Attorney General, and later Bill Barr as Attorney General. These were people with long and distinguished careers. But a lot of them, in Trump’s mind, especially the people I just mentioned, Trump felt were not actually loyal to him. So now it’s not about your credentials. It’s about how deeply loyal you are to him.

This is a government of people who have declared their almost complete loyalty, if not complete loyalty, to Donald Trump.

Jeff Bennett:

He’s surrounded by loyalists, she says. I think another distinguishing feature of Trump’s second term is the degree to which institutions have acquiesced to him.

Jonathan Carl:

Yes.

Jeff Bennett:

So, when the present these days thinks out loud and wonders out loud about running for another term, for a third term…

Jonathan Carl:

Yes.

Jeff Bennett:

Although he recently said that it is very clear that he is not allowed to do that. But the idea was planted.

Jonathan Carl:

Yes.

Jeff Bennett:

Do you think he is serious?

Jonathan Carl:

I don’t think he’s serious. I’ll say that first. I think he does it to trick people and make people afraid of him.

But I think this idea is gaining some traction and needs to be watched, because I’m not sure Trump is ready to hand over the baton. Perhaps he understands that the 22nd Amendment will make it impossible for him to run again. But if he can be convinced that he’s the only one and should stay, I don’t know.

But I’ll tell you this. In my reporting recently, Trump has told people privately, and people close to him, when the cameras aren’t rolling and when he’s not on social media, that he doesn’t intend to stay for another term. That could change. So stay tuned. But that’s what he’s saying now.

Jeff Bennett:

Revenge, how far do you think this will go, given that it’s already been activated in recent months?

Jonathan Carl:

Yes.

I don’t know – I honestly don’t know. It seems like almost everything he does now is either punishing people he feels have betrayed him or going after him, rewarding friends, and also some sort of legacy, whether it’s building a big ballroom. He is very serious about his desire to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

This is different from the first chapter. He is thinking about permanent changes in this country. He is very serious in responding to his enemies.

Jeff Bennett:

The book is titled “Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America.”

John Carl, always good to talk to you.

Jonathan Carl:

Yes, thank you very much. appreciate it.